here is a wickipedia link to the Jonestown Massacre. It’s a classic case-study in propaganda, the destructive consequences of self-deception, and cult psychology. To the unfamiliar, read the story and the Kool-aid reference will become clear….

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonestown

SOMEDAY there will be a line drawn SOMEWHERE, between two countries, and there will be a big-ass wall between them. Some of these settlements represent strategic planning on Isreal’s part, as to where that line will go, and some of them represent bargaining chips to haggle with – ie. something to give up when the time comes. Some of them though, are just there because of the ultra-orthodox true-believers who figure it’s “their land”, and they are just defying the government outright. Israel has ( literally ) dragged these people out of their homes plenty of times before, in the course of turning over land to palestinian control, and I’m sure they will again. It’s the least of our problems.

Sorry for my delayed response. I’ve been exhausted after work the last 2 nights. I enjoy solving all of the world’s problems on the internet, but alas, I am sometimes required to leave my keyboard and go out into the world to do irrelevant, mundane things like earning money to pay the bills…

Regarding your statement that the US and Israel have never considered Hamas to be a legitimate representative of the palestinian people, I guess I would agree with that. What I don’t understand is that you say it as though it’s a bad thing…( ? ) Non-association with some people is a badge of honor, and that is surely the case in this instance. Hamas is a terrorist organization that intentionally targets and murders women, children, babies etc with suicide bombers in crowded marketplaces, on buses full of innocent people, at weddings, at places of worship, and in schools. These are FACTS Little Green. Would you have us associate with such people, or have us treat them as peers in the community of nations? It doesn’t matter how you try and spin your propaganda, or how you try to rationalize these people. I don’t CARE if they were elected or not. Murder is murder. You CANNOT polish this turd no matter HOW hard you try. Hamas HAS no legitimacy, they never will, and the only thing they deserve is to be hunted down by the forces of justice in this world- (the IDF, Mossad,TEAM-AMERICA WORLD POLICE etc. )- and shot like dogs for their crimes against humanity, as far as I’m conscerned. They are entitled to nothing.

One of my favorite pictures of all time was a great shot I saw in the newspaper of what was left of Ahmed Yassin after the Israelis smoked his sorry ass with a couple of Hellfire missiles ( proudly made in America I might add ). The picture showed this bony leg sticking up out of a smoking pile of rubble, and I remember thinking what beautiful, poetic justice it was, that a man who had dedicated his life to blowing up innocent women and children wound up being blown to smithereens himself. I’m sure that God himself guided that missile with his own hand that day and that he did so with a smile on his face.

Regarding your peace-loving hero Kaled Mashaal, and his oh-so-generous offer to “negotiate with no pre-conditions” with the US and Israel, you’ll have to forgive me if I doubt the man’s sincerity and intentions. Bull-shit is not exactly at a premium in that part of the world, so I hope you won’t mind if I judge Hamas and Mr. Mashaal by their actions, and not by their words. Again- you are trying to polish a turd with empty words, and the fact that this guy – who has intentionally murdered more innocent men, women and children than Manson, Gacey, Ramirez, and Dahmer combined- is magnanimously willing to “negotiate” with us doesnt change who and what Hamas is.

Every organization in this world- from the Girl-Scouts to Hamas seeks to present themselves in the best possible light. Everybody spins. Everybody engages in public relations. Everybody speaks words. You do not discern good from evil by watching bullshit on you-tube… You discern the true from the false by observing “the fruits of the spirit”- ie. the ACTIONS that people take, and the deeds they do. Mashaal and Hamas want ONE thing- they have stated it over and over again, and have repeatedly demonstrated their commitment to that goal through their actions- and that goal is the TOTAL DESTRUCTION of Isreal. Let’s be clear here- They HATE Isreael. They want to WIPE ISREAL OFF THE MAP. They do not even acknowledge the right of Israel to EXIST… These are indisputable FACTS. These facts underlie and explain everything Hamas/ Mashaal does and says, MUCH more plausibly than the fairly tale of goodwill and peaceful intentions you seem to be spinning here. Your portrayal of Mashaal and Hamas as wrongfully-spurned seekers of peace is total bullshit and you know it.

If you have ever read “The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich”, you HAVE to see the similarities between Hamas’s desire to “negotiate”, and Hitler’s desire for “negotiations” with Checkeslovakia, Austria, and Poland just prior to World War 2. The aims and intentions of Hamas/Mashaal and Germany/Hitler towards their would-be victims are totally identical, and the actual words that both speak are/were in both cases irrelevant- just lullabyes designed to sooth idiot liberal Western politicians into in-action, and to keep the minion drones like you believing in the cause.

Look, let’s be honest here shall we? – Mashaal has no credibility and you know it. If you choose to believe in this man’s words in spite of his actions, then that’s because you are a person who believes what they WANT to believe regardless of reality, facts, or objective truth. You have plenty of company- the world is full of people like you. All I can say is enjoy the Kool-Aid and have fun in your imaginary idealogical playhouse. Objective truth and intellectual honesty isn’t for everyone, and seeing what you see, as opposed to what you WANT to see is often uncomfortable. I understand completely.

Here is a quick lesson on discernment from a far better teacher than me:

“Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits shall ye know them.”- Mathew 7:15-20

Objectively speaking, I ask you- have the actions of the Palestinans leaders, Hamas, and the PLO brought the Palestinian people grapes and figs, or thorns and thistles?

Your on-going ridiculous and intellectually flacid attempts to claim moral equivilancy between the people you support – who INTENTIONALLY target civilians, women , and children ( It’s a FACT! ), and the people I support- who are trying to selectively go after their attackers and sometimes UN-INTENTIONALLY kill innocent bystanders in the course of that, are basically beyond reasoning with. You HAVE to be able see the difference, and I can only conclude that you simply don’t WANT to see the difference. Has it ever occured to you that maybe the reason why so many innocent bystanders wind up getting in the way of Israeli attacks is because the gutless whussies in Hamas and Hezbollah shoot their rockets at civilian populations and then INTENTIONALLY HIDE in civilian populations even when they KNOW that Israel is going to respond against them? In your mind, do they not bear ANY responsibility for the consequences of their choice to commit crimes against humanity and to then go and hide among civilians? Of course they do bear responsibility, and you know it, dammit. You just aren’t intellectually honest enough to admit it.

Regarding your statement that “the new rounds of violence is not started by palestine.” , welll… I guess that when two armed parties are trading blows back and forth for 40 years, arguing over who started the “latest round” is a case of which came first- the chicken or the egg. Both sides are attacking and counter-atacking. The difference is in the two sides’ overall intentions, and in their choice of how they conduct themselves as they seek their respective goals. Your side goes merrily about it’s business intentionally blowing up students, babies, commuters,shoppers etc… throwing senior- citizens in wheel-chairs off of cruise ships, executing olympic athletes, and launching rockets indiscriminatly at civilian populations in pursuit of their lofty and noble goal of exterminating their neighbors to the north. My homies- the israelis- continue plotting, assasinating, and targeting the leadership of your merry band of thugs every chance they get- in pursuit of their own safety and survival as a nation. If you choose to draw moral equivilancy between the two sides in the conflict after seeing how each side has conducted themselves down through the years, well, again- I hope you enjoy the Kool-Aid. I hear grape is good, but make sure you try the tropical punch .

As far as the rightness or wrongness of negotiating with enemies, islamic lunatics etc. etc.- well, I guess as a general principal, it never hurts to communicate- for what it’s worth. But historically speaking, the language that tyrants, criminals, and other assorted murderers speak best is the language of brute force. It’s certainly the method that Hamas/ PLO/Hezbollah prefer to speak with to their innocent victims, so i say let’s talk back to them in a language they can understand loud and clear. Communication of this sort is good , I think.

As far as words and “negotiations” go, I’ll leave that to the State Department. Personally, I come from the “Creighton Abrams School of Diplomacy” ( “Grab em’ by the balls and their hearts and minds will follow…” )

Good Night and Good Luck- Ty

If Israel doesn’t want to be in Palestine, they’d do well to pull down the illegal settlements.

Israel and the US never accepted the results of the 2006 Palestinian elections. This means these states don’t consider Hamas a legitimate representative of the Palestinian nation. Hamas has repeatedly requested to negotiate with the US and Israel without any preconditions. Here is an interview with Khaled Mashaal on youtube:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8TTjb54GzM&e
Israel has not only rejected any negotiations with Hamas but also assassinated Hamas activists along with innocent people (that you consider collateral damage). The rocket attacks are simply a retaliation for what Israel has been doing for a long time.

You compare Hamas with Hitler? The German army was a real threat to Eruope while Hamas is backed by simple weapons and home-made rockets for god’s sake. Israel has one of the strongest military in the world. How could negotiating with Hamas pose a danger as Hitler did? Even with Hitler, wouldn’t you negotiate with Hitler in 1935? Isn’t the US negotiating though indirectly with North Korea? There is nothing wrong with negotiating with Hamas. If your reasoning is that Hamas is responsible for the death of your civilians, well the IDF is responsible for much worse.

Your next point about Israeli withdrawal being followed by attacks on Israel is not substantiated with evidence. Israel’s withdrawal from south Lebanon was not followed by attacks from Hizbullah. In fact the opposite is true and Israel has many Hizbullah activists, kidnapped, tortured, and killed. The same is true about Palestinian activists.

The new rounds of violence is not started by the Palestinians. Israel has been killing Palestinians constantly for the past few months. When Hamas retaliates by firing useless pieces of metal into Israel killing one Israeli once in a month, that becomes an excuse for a heavy retaliation by the IDF giving birth to more terror attacks from the Palestinian side.

Norman Finkelstein has studied the claim of unitnentional killing by the IDF and there is only one conclusion: For the Israelis trying hard not to kill innocent bystanders, they are damn good at it. I suggest reading his books and visiting his website: normanfinkelstein.com

Not to mention the fact that these ‘terrorist’ groups were deemed such by the British, who at that point were allied with the Arabs and various imported German nazis in an effort to crush Israel and receive military base rights in the future Arab state. One can read the details on this by googling ‘british record on partition’ , available on Jared Israel’s website.

So essentially what you have, is Jewhaters branding the Jews that defend Jews as ‘terrorists’ or ‘right wing zealots’, as opposed to the kapo Jews that aided and assisted the nazis of course. These are the Jews that are quite beloved by the establishment. And this is why 2000 years of history tends to lie about and slander the Jews.

How many years ago was it that Palestinians use unguided, un-targeted rockets against civilians? .01? Is it policy for them to use such weapons? Absolutely. It is further the stated objective of the properly elected government of Gaza to destroy Israel utterly, unlimited warfare.

Gazans have no moral authority left, not even the children who are educated from their first word to kill Israelis. They have no excuses.

I’ll read up on all that nifty philosophy, and you argue with a policeman, a prosecutor, and a judge. We can trade notes when you’re paroled.

BY CONTRAST, can you imagine a Hamas or Hezbollah or Al Aqsa Bridage terrorists WORRIED about this? Don’t be absurd! On the contrary–these people have been ideologically primed to kill civilians, including children, and they intend to kill civilians, including children. They CELEBRATE killing civilians, including children. And the Arab “street” in Gaza celebrates as well.

There, my Muslim and non-Muslim friends, is the difference.