Too Many Highly Educated Black Women Can’t Get Married.
I found an interesting and sobering article which tends to verify what many of us have already known; a frightfully high percentage of well educated and accomplished Black women will never marry or have children. There are to be sure many reasons for this sad fact, a number of which are spelled out in the piece. But from what I have discovered living in a city like Washington, DC, high achieving, well educated, professional Black women tend to be too independently minded, controlling, materialistic, and just plain bossy. They also have oppressive notions of perfection when meeting eligible men and tend to be too judgemental; a serious turn off to be sure. Oftentimes, you will find these women engaging in unnecessary power struggles with their men; a kind of madness that most successful brothers just don’t want to deal with.
I perfectly realize that my views only constitute a subjective opinion, but I think there’s something to it, I really do. However, being reported on the extremely liberal MSNBC website, the article of course leaves out one of the biggest complaints of successful Black women; the high number of gay Black men.
Anyway, I’d like to get some feedback on this. Am I off base?
MSNBC.com Marriage eludes high-achieving black womenMany remain single and childless, according to new researchBy Brian Alexandermsnbc.com contributorupdated 8:31 a.m. ET, Thurs., Aug 13, 2009
Michelle Obama may have become an archetypal African-American female success story — law career, strong marriage, happy children — but the reality is often very different for other highly educated black women.
They face a series of challenges in navigating education, career, marriage and child-bearing, dilemmas that often leave them single and childless even when they’d prefer marriage and family, according to a research study recently presented at the American Sociological Society’s annual meeting in San Francisco.
Yale researchers Natalie Nitsche and Hannah Brueckner argued that “marriage chances for highly educated black women have declined over time relative to white women.” Women of both races with postgraduate educations “face particularly hard choices between career and motherhood,” they said, “but especially in the absence of a reliable partner.”
And there’s the rub. As noted in a recent Sexploration column, contrary to old media reports, most educated, professional women who want to marry can and do marry. But the picture is less bright for high-achieving black women because “marriage markets” for them have deteriorated to the point that many remain unmarried, the researchers found. Since these women also feel pressured not to become single mothers, they often go childless as well, the researchers found.
In the study, Nitsche and Brueckner used data from the U.S. Census Bureau’s Current Population Survey of 50,000 households dating back to the 1970s to tease out data points on race, gender, education, marriage and fertility.
Among black women with postgraduate educations born between 1956 and 1960, the median age at which they gave birth for the first time was 34 years old. This was about the same as it was for white women in the same demographic. But once white women reached their 30s, many more of them did give birth, often more than once. Many black women did not. The rate of childlessness among this group of black women rose from 30 percent for those born between 1950 and 1955, to 45 percent for those born between 1956 and 1960.
I dont think that you are off base, but I think that one fact continues to remain hidden in articles like this one: Black, successful women will not just settle for anything.
And if it means being alone as opposed to being with someone that is on par financially but emotionally and romantically stunted, then so be it.
Successful AA women look and aim for the best in everything – we want what everyone else is getting.
I don’t totally buy into the “sucks to be you, nobody wants to marry you” song and dance. I do agree that the times of being passive and waiting for you suitor to come to you are over. BW have to be more aggressive to find that mate.
But once we catch on to what has to be done, we excel like we do in any other part of our lives.
We gay black men have NOTHING to do with the difficulty many highly educated black women have finding a suitable mate. Blaming this problem on gay black men is nothing more than scapegoating. It’s homophobia plain and simple. We have nothing to do with your problem. You straight black women and striaght black men should work out your issues together and leave gay black men out of your mess. We have our own issues.
@Tracy
” Successful AA women look and aim for the best in everything – we want what everyone else is getting.”
That’s fine. The only real question is; are you willing to give what everyone else is giving? Does it ever even occure to these sisters to ask what does this successful Black man want? These successful Black women feel very much “entitled” to get every pound of flesh of what they believe they’re worth, and I have no problem with that. Really I don’t. The problem arises when they refuse to consider the brothers needs and expectations. There is a one-sided selfishness here on the part of these women that is incredibly off-putting and quite frankly insufferable. I still don’t believe that successful Black men want to marry outside of the race, but at the same time they too feel that they have earned the right to be happy. I don’t think the women are even listening to what successful Black men are trying to share with them, and so they are finding other women who do.
” But once we catch on to what has to be done, we excel like we do in any other part of our lives.”
Again, I have very serious doubts about that statement.
@ ARM
For pity’s sake
Understand that I am a sucessful Black Woman
Centered and unbound by the ways of other folk
Knowing full well my potential and my place in this world
Your response saddens me
Only a Black man with issues would use those outdated excuses to
Undermine a proud black woman’s motives.
love and kisses – Tracy
This is exactly ARM’s point. In your response, you addressed NONE of his questions i.e. “Are you willing to give what everyone else is giving?” If you’re so “unbound” by the ways of others, then why the heck are you concerned about what everyone else is getting? Which one is it? Instead of engaging the debate with facts and reason, you HIDE behind useless gibberish. Sounds pretty typical if you know what I mean. You’re right, ARM DOES HAVE ISSUES……issues that women like you FAIL to acknowledge TIME AND TIME AGAIN! Its a two way street, that’s all he was trying to say. Keep the kisses!
@ Kyle and ARM
For God’s sake man!! Look at the first letter of each line that I wrote!! That is my message to men like you !!
Sheesh, black men are so dense – everybody else got it!!
Abdur-Rahman – try being a black female professional in Manhattan/New York where the common refrain from many of these educated/professional black guys is that “I only date (fill in the blank with a non-black race) women” or some seriously go into an “allergic” reaction upon laying eyes on you from a distance when you are walking in their direction that they start turning their heads the other direction and acting as if the mere presence of a female with the same skin color as theirs is a disease. Something is seriously wrong with black men here. When it comes to the “giving” question, black women want to give under monogamous situations and not feel as though they are part of some harem of black women that are being played only to be ditched later on for a white, asian, indian girl etc… has happend to me on numerous occassions and i have been very generous, nice, caring, etc to these men…but unfortunately the more giving you are they just take advantage.
Salaam’Alaikum Abdur-Rahman,
Before I give you my feedback I do want to disclose that I’m *beyond* sick, and tired of focusing on the pathologies of our people—including this one. I don’t like negative people, and I don’t like negativity. I also don’t like to get sucked into negativity. What I’ve observed when trying to discuss this issue amongst our people (be it BW/BM, BW/BW, or BM/BM) is that ***ALL*** reason, morality, self-respect, empathy, compassion, and vision is just completely thrown out the door. Folks talk AT each other versus TO each other.
Here is where I stand on the issue (including some of the comments you made):
Everyone is certainly entitled to their own feelings, and beliefs. I do not believe that homosexuality is the reason why professional black women are un-married or why ANY black woman is unmarried. I do not believe that a great percentage of black men are homosexuals. I do understand why some black women or black men may think homosexuality is the reason when some bi-sexual or gay men have married black women, and their marriage ended in flames. All of this anger at gay black men in my opinion is really misdirected.
I have a few problems with that article. There is an implication or rather an assumption that elite black women or professional black women are unable to marry. The reality is that marriage has disappeared amongst black women of all class tiers. The majority of our people no longer marry, and form functional families anymore.
After listening to black feminists/womanist and black nationalists/conservatives debate our pain, misery, problems, challenges, and possible solutions here are my conclusions:
Something has happened to us as a people or maybe, it was always bubbling underneath the surface. Many of us are sick on so many levels so much so that we have lost some basic qualities of humanity such as empathy, compassion, patience, tolerance, respect, and honor. It seems to me that many black women, and black men are incapable of treating each other like human beings, and we no longer believe that we are worthy or valuable of ANYTHING. If we did value each other our population wouldn’t be in the state of humiliation we are in today.
Many of us are completely oblivious to how other family units from different races and cultures function in relation/contrast to our own. I see, and hear both BM and BW attempting to dictate to each other what their role should or shouldn’t be based on everything from sexually perverted fads to fairy tales from Cinderella. I also see both BM and BW excessively preoccupied with power control struggles manifested in micromanaging every minute detail of their relationships. Other races, and groups are following some type of moral code be it a mutually agreed upon cultural contract or something from a scripture or maybe both with some variation. It’s almost like people spending their every waking hour planning their spouses/partners every whim and move—because they have nothing good going for themselves, and are incredibly insecure.
I believe that black men who accuse ANY black woman of ANY class tier of being narcissist, materialistic, controlling, and negative are really saying that black women deserved to be treated like pets, and locked up in cages. These accusations are myths that didn’t even begin with black men, but black men internalized them, and used them to engage in endless gender wars with black women in order to avoid being held to a standard that required them to treat us like we are human, like we are valuable, and deserving a decent quality of life. Black women could use the same myths against black men: unemployed, abusive, and incompetent. We could go back and forth until the sun set. I believe that slavery, and segregation destroyed many of our people. I believe that we have so many unresolved issues that have stunted our growth as individuals, and collectively that it takes extreme movements to just get our people back to basics. I think so many circumstances, and life style choices have damaged both black men, and women. When I hear black men from any class tier discuss black women all I can hear is that they have damaged, and the only way for them to be happy is to look inward and deal with what’s going on. Racism, classism, modernism, daily wear and tear of holding a job and managing a family are realities. The way that black men have chosen to cope with those realities is abnormal in relation to other brown skinned people. Shaming, blaming, abusing, and publicly debasing black women (in essence your own mother) is not only ineffective, but it didn’t produce good results for black men.
I believe that black women should just become world citizens because we no longer have a black community anymore—only when it’s convenient for some. You said professional black men deserve to be happy so do professional black women or any morally sound hard working person.
Until black men and women are ready to engage in a campaign to address the grievances we have with each other we will continue on the decline that we are on now. I think the best solution is for every woman, and girl to decide what’s best for her unapologetically and move forward with out the anger, bitterness, and negativity.
Just my opinion…
I don’t totally buy into the “sucks to be you, nobody wants to marry you” song and dance. I do agree that the times of being passive and waiting for you suitor to come to you are over. BW have to be more aggressive to find that mate. –Tracy
Articles like this (and crappy journalism like Black in America) only give black men who have decided that black women are their enemies; that black women are unworthy, undeserving, and inhuman more egocentric kool -aide to drink! This is just an opportunity for them to rub it in black women’s (including those of who are already married) faces:
“ ha ha ha you ain’t married”
“nobody loves you”
Just like a four year old!
Many may not want to hear that but it’s so true.
As a biracial person who wasn’t raised within black culture I can tell you black women in general don’t have expectations they have delusions. They’re not dealing with reality. From lower class to professionals their standards to are either too low or too high. There is not a sense of reality. I find within my experience black women expect so much more, unrealistically more, than what women of other races expect. Success leaves clues as often said and maybe if sensible minded AA women would understand the differences between their expectations of that of other women they may find out what other women are doing right and what they are doing wrong.
WOW!
much of what has been elobrated on are symtoms rather than the real problem, the real problem is that Black americans have a severely unraveled and disconnected social cohesion.
And Muslims with Islam as a guidepost are in the best position to resolve the issue, however due to the injustice we have allowed to be wrought on our women and children, compounded with an erroneous understanding of asabiyah, we are failing in connecting and maintaining the “ties of the womb” which is the foundation of family life.
Here we are lamenting well off BW inability to get married, yet as was mentioned poor women are getting married even less frequently. We have not developed a consistantly workable social order. And until WE do, will continue to have these problems.
being the ubber “American” or ubber “Muslim” with any other social connections isn’t going to work
I mostly agree with Sister Seeking, Miriam. I might add that black homophobia FUELS the so-called “down-low” in what used to be called the “black community”.
Black men who are either known or thought to be gay are ridiculed, harrassed, rejected, attacked and sometimes murdered. This is why you have the “down-low”. If you want the “down-low” to end, you MUST help end homophobia.
@elg
first off just as the number of gays have had little or no impact on the number of single BW, neither does the current climate has any effect “down-low” males, no they CHOOSE to do so due to their own selfishness.
With help of hollywood the normalization of gayness is at an all time, every Black comic has a “flamer” character in his arsonal, I never thought I’d see the day when you’d have a Black gay thug with a Muslim name on tv. ie Omar from the Wire. Even in so-called academia there’s is full support for gayness.
Blacks in america have some real problems in terms of family and community but acceptance of gays isn’t one.
Nevertheless, why is it you guys are always trying to co-opt the Black struggle? The Islamic position on gayness is clear.
As a biracial person who wasn’t raised within black culture I can tell you black women in general don’t have expectations they have delusions. They’re not dealing with reality. From lower class to professionals their standards to are either too low or too high. There is not a sense of reality. I find within my experience black women expect so much more, unrealistically more, than what women of other races expect. Success leaves clues as often said and maybe if sensible minded AA women would understand the differences between their expectations of that of other women they may find out what other women are doing right and what they are doing wrong. Hamza 21
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This response is a prime example of folks talking AT each other instead of TO each other. This response is more about VENTING than seeking an honest dialogue. This is exactly why black men, and women don’t get anywhere because we can’t communicate with each other. There is huge difference is sharing your concerns versus venting, and debasing people.
Have you ever asked yourself why you feel black women have so called unrealistic expectations of marriage and family life? Other than resulting to the usual knee jerk arguments prevalent amongst many black men? Any one put on their critical thinking cap?
Let’s see…
Could it be that ***BOTH*** genders NO LONGER know what marriage, and family is because it disappeared 50 years ago in our population?
This is not about measuring ourselves against the cultural norms of others because we are inherently inferior people. It’s about taking a hard honest look at what we are doing wrong so that we understand the results: normalized single parenthood, high incarceration rates for black men, and so forth and so on.
You also imply that “black culture” which I don’t get how there is one because there is no longer a community is what’s responsible for elite black women’s singlehood. The article references disproves this point.
I’ve been inter-culturally married now, nearly eight years. Dh, and I have met several other mixed couples, and families. Men from other cultures, and races do not go around bad mouthing their women, and debasing them. They are aware of their groups problems, and challenges but they do not debase their women, and children like we do. I’ve actually seen them talk up their country women, and manipulate the system to protect them.
And Muslims with Islam as a guidepost are in the best position to resolve the issue, however due to the injustice we have allowed to be wrought on our women and children, compounded with an erroneous understanding of asabiyah, we are failing in connecting and maintaining the “ties of the womb” which is the foundation of family life. Abu Usamah al-Aswad
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Abu Usamah al-Aswad, I never EVER thought I’d agree with ANYTHING you’ve ever said but I do here.
Kudoos to you for taking personal responsibility instead of falling into the vent/whine blame game mode.
Wa salaam
@Abu Usamah al-Aswad
I wrote that “black men who are either known or thought to be gay are ridiculed, harrassed, rejected, attacked and sometimes murdered”. Your response was that this anti-gay bigotry has NOTHING to do with the “down-low”. SMH There’s no point in us “discussing” this issue any further.
You wrote that the “normalization of gayness” is at an all time high. Where has this “normalization” happened? No place that I know of. Some places are more gay-friendly than others but there is no place in America (or the world) where homophobia does not exist. A few gay characters on a few TV programs does not change this. FYI The overwhelming majority of TV shows have NO gay characters.
“Nevertheless, why is it you guys are always trying to co-opt the Black struggle?” I’ve heard this allegation from homophobic straight black people before. I don’t know what it means. Black people aren’t the only people in America who have been discriminated against. Black people don’t own the civil rights movement. Without Bayard Rustin, an openly gay black man and confidant of Dr. Martin L. King, Jr., the 1963 March on Washington would not have taken place. Dr. MLK was aware that Rustin was gay but maintained a friendly working relationship with him anyway.
“The Islamic position on gayness is clear.” I was raised to be a “Christian”, however, I walked away from all that when I came of age because I was not going to sit up in a church and be called an “abomination” because of my sexual orientation. I am a nonbeliever. I am not going to “debate” religion with anyone because in America there is supposed to be separation of church and state. I am entitled to the same rights, including marriage equality, as any other American regardless of what the Bible/Koran or any other so-called “holy book” has to say about my sexual orientation.
I don’t usually comment on most sites about topics like this, but I’m doing so now against my better judgment.
I’m happy that you described your views as a “subjective opinion.” Your argument that bw are at fault for their 70% unpartnered rate due to materialism, bossiness . . . . etc. is the reason why I simply encourage AA women to just ‘move on. ‘ You may not realize that some of these traits that you describe as negative in AA women are seen as positive by men in other groups. My white husband likes the fact that I have an independent mind because I can take the initiative in situations and if necessary, I don’t need to get directions from any adult. I don’t need another adult telling me what to do. I’m creative; I’m innovative. I can think on my feet.
I was married before to a Nigerian man. He loved my ambitiousness, adventurousness, my spunkiness, which are traits that plenty of AA men would probably view negatively and think that I’m talking back to them. I’m resilient. I’m not a quitter. I’m resourceful; I will find a way. These are traits that plenty of AA men trash about AA women, because we don’t just fold.
I don’t understand why AA men don’t just ‘move on’ since they have nothing good to say about AA women. For sure, a lot of upwardly mobile AA women will be just fine once they can break their “addiction” to AA men and they will do that, given time. I personally think that AA women would be better off alone than to fold for ANY man. I’m happy that I’ve met wonderful men since I first began dating who didn’t need for me to fold for them.
But now that SOME AA women are finding men in other groups who do appreciate the same traits that AA men trash, so many AA men are up in arms. Don’t you think that’s selfish? Practically any upwardly mobile AA woman can get a pretty decent man IF she builds her self esteem and focuses elsewhere. This I KNOW because I’ve lived among other groups of people (Africans and whites) all of my adult life, and I know how upwardly mobile AA women compare to these other groups of women.
I won’t even mention all the things I don’t like about AA men. That’s not necessary because I saw early in my life that there were other men in the world who had qualities and traits that I did like.
So I just wonder why AA men don’t just move on and find happiness with whomever. There is nothing that AA men are saying or doing that will MOTIVATE upwardly mobile AA women with good self esteem women to fold in order to get or keep an AA man.
Also, I definitely don’t blame gay bm for anything. I’m a flaming heterosexual woman. Why would I be interested in a gay man or expect him to be interested in me????? I really don’t understand bw who blame gay men for bw being unmarried. However, the Census does count gay bm as men and that’s probably why some people bring them up in this context.
@elr
Here we go again you guys resorting to the old “well Bayard Rustin and James Baldwin were gay” trump card, get out of here with that. Far as that goes A. Philip Randolph had just as much input in organizing that march, yet what does it matter?, that march was just a watered down farce anyway — don’t get me started on that.
You say “ridiculed, harrassed, rejected, attacked and sometimes murdered” really? When was the last time a gay man or woman was excecuted by police simply for being gay? The mere fact that you would deny that through the movies and tv hollywood has bombarded America with the covert/overt “gay is cool” marketing, shows that you have taken the hollywood mantra of “willful suspension of disbelief” to a whole new level. LOL
I digress:
@”Sister Seeking” that’s odd because I’ve often agreed many of your assessments about our problems both yours and Sister Khadija’s, I just don’t often suscribe to your solutions
@ Tracy
First of all, I have gone to your blog, which I was unaware of, and find it extremely positive and encouraging. But sister, what in God’s name have I said that is so unreasonable or so “disappointing”? Where do women like you get the idea that successful Black men are trying to smash you, or as one commenter wrote, “make you fold”? Where is all this crazy attitude coming from? I love Black women and her rise is my rise.
Be more specific and tell me what are the supposed “issues” I have that you are you talking about? I never said that you weren’t successful or proud, only that I doubted that women with the kinds of hostile attitudes you hold would fully give a man all of the things you feel so entitled to as a successful Black woman. Your response to my comment to my mind confirms my initial observations.
Sister, as a brother and hopefully at some point a friend, you gotta kill some of that attitude. Its unnecessary drama that I promise you is literally running men away. I wish you would take my word on that speaking AS A SUCCESSFUL BLACK MAN. All we want is some love and affection, just like you. I am not at war with you. Trust me when I tell you that I want you to be as successful and prosperous as you possibly can. I’m not trying to make anyone “fold” or such nonsense; and thats just what it is, nonsense.
Is a woman being “smashed” or “broken” for making dinner for her man and making him feel good? Is a woman being made to “fold” for giving her man some good loving when HE needs it, instead of trying to ration it out with comments like, “you ain’t going to make me a ho” or “your not going to use my body up”! Is it too much to ask to make a Black man feel like a King again and he in return make you feel like a queen? Sister where is this warfare mentality coming from? I swear I don’t understand it.
Hey Dude!
Well first of all y – hey you read my blog?!? You like it!? Cool!! Ok Brownie points there…..
Where was I? Oh yeah, look you came at me wrong. I am sure that there was a much better way of saying what you said to me…..I could just hear your disdain for me, see the rolling look in your eyes…
You assumed that I was, in your own words, one-sided and selfish. And can I safely assume that you thought that I was putting down AA men in my post – I wasn’t. I was simply saying that professional AA women won’t just marry for the sake of being married – we want someone that values us and can give us at least what we have given ourselves.
This is the problem – I can’t begin to dialogue with a Successful BM such as yourself, because you have already deemed me unworthly of even a simple debate. How can I ask you about what you need, when you have already pushed my feelings and my need to be treated as a lovely, viable and trustworthy person aside?
As for my “warfare mentality”, a year ago, I couldn’t walk across the street without heart failure: today I benchpress almost 200 and run 10 miles FOR FUN! That makes me a bad mofo in anybody’s book!
Now, if you are willing to drop YOUR defenses and speak to me like the queen and warrior that I am , then we can communicate – I ask for no less from anyone else.
BTW – the poem was my answer to your reply – read it again – slowly.
Since I’m a commenter who made one of the comments you referenced, I’ll respond.
I talk with plenty of AA women about relationships all of the time. I’ve always done that. For some reason, they like talking to me about their relationships.
This is what I hear from AA women about why they don’t want to “give” their AA men what he wants. Not talking about ALL of them, but I often hear that AA men don’t know how to MOTIVATE the women to ***want*** to give him these pleasures that you speak of. Lots of AA women say that AA men are NOT romantic; he just wants to have sex. Or he just wants them to go and cook for them, as if the woman is not TIRED too. She may want someone to cook for her! Does an AA man ever think about things like that?
I mean, it’s really a lovely perk to have someone to cook for you because that’s a chore that must be done just about everyday. Doing chores around the house everyday is like going to work everyday. Duh! It’s a job! In my household, we take turns cooking and doing chores, and I’ve taught my sons how to cook and do chores. However, some AA women LOVE to cook. It’s their hobby.
My husband is very ROMANTIC. He knows how to MOTIVATE me to ***want*** to do things for him, to give him pleasure, to make him happy. He didn’t wait for me to show him. He worked to WIN me by doing little things for me from the getgo, to show me that he wanted to make me happy. He doesn’t have to persuade me to give him good loving because he knows how to give me all of those little kisses between the kitchen, living room, and whatever place and the bedroom that keep me ready for him. In other words, he KNOWS how to make me purr inside and outside the bedroom. LOL! I’m just as anxious for the bedroom as he is. He keeps me feeling LOVED and desirable. I can tell by how he looks at me and by what he DOES for me that he appreciates me. If a man knows how to keep a woman feeling loved and desirable, there won’t be stress in the bedroom in the vast majority of cases.
My ex-husband wasn’t quite as romantic, but he made me feel loved and desirable and was as romantic as he could be. He SHOWED me his love in various ways. Our marriage didn’t work out for other reasons, but I’ll always love him as a person and would walk on hot coals for him ANY day.
It seems that AA men want AA women to take the LEAD in the relationship area too, and as you say, make him feel like a king, FIRST. Why doesn’t a typical AA man realize that he must make the woman feel like a queen FIRST and keep her feeling like a queen. He has to WIN her. If AA men were to lead in that department and do that–with the RIGHT AA women, many of y’all would stop having these issues with AA women. You’ve also got to pick the RIGHT woman. All too often, y’all pick the wrong women because you tend to go by appearance.
You said But from what I have discovered living in a city like Washington, DC, high achieving, well educated, professional Black women tend to be too independently minded, controlling, materialistic, and just plain bossy. They also have oppressive notions of perfection when meeting eligible men and tend to be too judgemental; a serious turn off to be sure.
With that attitude I could certainly understand why it would be detrimental for any black women to date you. That type of negativity offers no value to a woman looking for a quality mate when you lump a majority of women into the garbage bin of your desirable meter.
Perhaps some women are that way but I’d love to find out if they were reared in a two-parent home with adequate male role models and saw positive affirming actions between men and women. I could produce a laundry list of faults that do actually apply to an increasing majority of black men. Instead I choose to not waste my time looking for shiny objects in the gutter. The high HIV rate in DC and indeed for the millions of infected black women is likely due to sharing black men who’ve either been in and out of prison or think they’re highly prized cows worthy of spreading their seed indiscriminately. Which only shows the low caliber regardless of earned income or degrees of the parties involved. Black gay men have nothing to do with this.
Unfortunely to many sucessful women are chosen not to get married.They feel marriage interrupt there goals and objectives.Many times these pursuits are gaining acess to material items and trinkets that they feel they need to have to be happy.Part of blame is do to the Gloria Stein white femminist garbage that spilled over amongst our sisters.Bell Hooks,Alice Walker and other black woman writers tried taclkle the racism in this socalled movement.Unfortunely they didn’t emphasize enough black love amongst our men and women.To Bell Hooks credit and dozen of other black women femminists writers they did a good job in tackling the physiological effects and trauma of raciism black women encounter.Unfortunley the results have led many brothers to chase after white women and even marrying them.These are just opinions of mine on the subject.Abdur Rahman good job on bringing this discussion once again forth in a righteous manner.As far as the gaybirds in our,community go they can take a hike with that bullacrap.I personally will never before unity with a sodimite.These are some nasty creatures.
Far too many Black women, especially educated ones, limit their dating choices and only want an “IBM” (Ideal Black Man). They should seriously consider Latin, white and other men instead of waiting for that IBM to walk through the door. The IBMs are certainly not waiting on us
“As far as the gaybirds in our,community go they can take a hike with that bullacrap.I personally will never before unity with a sodimite.These are some nasty creatures.”
The truly “nasty” thing is the “straight” black male commenter who laments the fact that highly educated black women don’t want to be maids and sex objects for him. He’s actually upset that black women aren’t interested in cooking for him and sexing him when HE wants to be sexed. It’s interesting that NONE of the “straight” black male commenters on this thread (so far) have objected to this (probably because they all think the same way).
I was extremely hesitant to enter this conversation. These types of “discussions” tend to be all heat and NO light. These conversations are generally a waste of precious time.
I co-sign what Tracy and Evia said. AA women want what other women want, and what every other ethnic group of women on this planet more or less have—husbands who are protectors and providers. The protector part includes protecting a woman’s dignity.
Since, looking at the statistics, it’s long past time for AA women to move on to the global village of potential husbands. The root cause of this majority AA unmarried and OOW childbirth rates is AA women’s choice to try to chain themselves to AA men—the “nuthin’ but a AA man” mindset is causing this suffering.
The interactions between most AA men and most AA women have become too toxic to be repaired. It’s time for most of us to walk away from each other.
It is NOT necessary for AA women to continue going through this strife. Not at all. Not when there are other men who can and DO appreciate AA women’s resilience and high-spirits. Not when there are other men who are able, willing and eager to protect and provide for AA women as legitimate husbands and fathers. All any woman really needs is to find ONE such man.
Abdur-Rahman, if I understand you correctly, you’re saying that you don’t believe that AA women can do this. If we are truly so unappealing to other men then there’s no need for you to try to break our spirits and our confidence by telling us how undesirable we are to AA men. How does telling us how undesirable we are to AA men help us to find a life better outside of the hellish conditions for women (and children) that currently exist within the all-AA relationship market? This is only true if other men have the same criteria, expectations and desires as AA men.
I submit to you that this is unlikely. Men from other ethnic groups seem to be MUCH more invested in wanting to be legitimate husbands and fathers. So, just on the “desire to engage in marriage” tip alone, men from other ethnic groups apparently don’t have the same “tastes” as AA men. This suggests that there’s probably very little (if any) overlap or connection between AA men’s reactions and the reactions of non-AA men.
AA men have demonstrated by their ACTIONS, including the AA Muslim men who purchase Arab wives from Morocco, that they long ago moved on from trying to resurrect the dead AA family structure. AA men are already doing whatever works for them. This is their right. AA women need to start doing the same. It’s just that simple.
It’s long past time for AA women to move on as well. Time to seek out husbands who appreciate AA women for themselves. And to STOP limiting themselves to “nuthin’ but a AA man.” And to simply walk away from toxic interactions and toxic situations.
It’s time for everybody to just walk away in peace, and find whatever situation works for them.
Wa Salaam.
Evia’s right. Date someone who wants you and appreciate your traits, regardless of color. I’m a 27 year old professional black woman and I am marrying a great guy next year. Why? I never sat around waiting for any damn black prince charming as I have observed closely since I was a child that black men on the whole do not appreciate or show loyalty to black women, especially dark-skinned ones who look like ME. That was game over for me. I have a loving black father who was married to my black mother for over 20 years before she passed away. I recognized that what they had was RARE. I was one of very few black kids growing up that lived with two married parents, let alone saw my father on a regular basis. You are telling me this is because black women are bossy? I had a ton of white friends growing up with bossy mothers and they managed to find husbands. Black women, we are being had. A man is a man is a man, as long as he treats you well. Aim high and DO NOT settle. Don’t blindly show loyalty to black men because you share a skin color. Expect reciprocity. When’s the last time the ‘black community’ supported you or any other black woman? So when a black man or any man says your traits are ‘too much’, believe him and walk away. Find someone who likes what you have to offer. Don’t allow any man to make a ‘baby mama’ or a ‘wifey’ out of you. If black women are so unpleasant to be around, why all the YouTube drama about black women dating and marrying out? If no one else wants us, there’s nothing to be scared of right?
“Sister, as a brother and hopefully at some point a friend, you gotta kill some of that attitude. Its unnecessary drama that I promise you is literally running men away. I wish you would take my word on that speaking AS A SUCCESSFUL BLACK MAN. All we want is some love and affection, just like you. I am not at war with you. Trust me when I tell you that I want you to be as successful and prosperous as you possibly can. I’m not trying to make anyone “fold” or such non-sense; and thats just what it is, non-sense.” Mr. Muhammed YOU are full of “non-sense” (spelled wrong, no comma required). Your whole tone is condescending and patronizing. I’m not fooled by your KING/QUEEN ridiculousness. I always finds that talk to be a red-herring as 9 times out of 10 it is followed by disrespect and insults. You spoke of black women’s negative traits as if no other women on earth has negative traits.
elg, you are right, black folks on the whole need to drop the homophobia. It’s NOT a good look in 2009. No black gay man every disrespected me on the street by catcalling and then becoming angry and calling me out of my name when I didn’t respond like I was flattered.
Whew, I done hopped into this one haven’t I! I’m so rotton I can’t even spell right lol.
@Khadija
Dang sister, you been reading my blog for about two years now and I thought we knew each other better than that. I have always been respectful of you even when we have disagreed, why all the hate now? You know better than anyone the way I have fought for our AA sisters, and to hear you speaking like this is really quite depressing. Am not I the same brother who took a stand against Black muslim taking arab wives. Even when we try we get no credit. My post was meant more as an observaton of my recent experiences, not as an attack against Black women. Am I no longer the brother who wrote this ode to Black women two years ago.
http://singularvoice.wordpress.com/2007/11/09/why-going-to-morocco-is-not-the-solution/
@ e
I understand the baby mama thing, but what in God’s name is wrong with a Black man who wants a Black woman for a wife, or “wifey” as you say. Interestingly enough, you mention how your intenting to be a “wifey” for someone presumely not a Black man. I gotta go back and corret my spelling.
Bro. Abdur-Rahman,
There’s no “hate” here. It’s simply that I, along with other AA women, are rejecting the dishonest double standards that we’ve watched so many AA men fling at us. It’s not “hatred” for me to reject your characterization of what is going on regarding these issues.
Overall, AAs have a LOT of self-hatred-based/Black-hating-based double standards. This negativity that AA men speak about AA women is one such double standard. It’s very similar to the double standard that slave-minded AA consumers have for Black-owned businesses.
The way AA males will marry obese, “trailer park” non-Black women but demand that BW be polished and near-flawless “diamonds” is EXACTLY parallel to the way AA consumers will flock to filthy, rude and dangerous Arab/Korean stores but yet demand that Black-owned businesses look and act like the jewellers at Cartier.
Now, I would prefer that more Black-owned businesses had the highest of standards, but quality and service are NOT what’s motivating AA consumers’ choices. If it was about quality and service, then AAs wouldn’t be jam-packed in these filthy, rude Arab/Korean stores. AA consumer choices are REALLY about hateration of other Blacks and a burning desire to be validated by non-Blacks by shopping with them.
AA men’s actions demonstrate that the TRUE underlying motives are the SAME with AA men regarding this issue. If AA men were really sincere in their complaints, then so many BM wouldn’t chase after inon-Black women that have the SAME negative traits that they accuse BW of having.
AA women have eyes and ears to see what so many AA men actually do. We see the obese, uncouth, and overall uncivilized non-Black women that so many AA men gleefully take up with. We notice that many of these non-Black women that AA men value so much have the SAME traits that these men accuse AA women of having.
Fewer and fewer AA women are going for BM’s dishonest okey-doke anymore about this issue. We’re not falling for the Jedi-mind trick anymore. That refusal to be deceived and degraded is not “hate.” It’s self-respect, self-love, and most of all, self-preservation.
Brother Abdur-Rahman, I’m not going to chase this particular issue very many times. These types of conversations are played out as far as I’m concerned. It’s ONLY out of respect for you that I participate in this. I’m generally “done” with these sorts of conversations with BM.
Yes, I respect the fact that (unlike the vast majority of AA men) you were one of a HANDFUL who have taken stands against various Black-hating, woman-hating, and specifically BW-hating behaviors that so many Black males are engaged in (particularly Muslim Black males). You’ve been given what you have called “credit” for that. And I have supported your various stands against madness and injustice.
None of that means that I’m obligated to agree with what I see as a continuation of the systematic breaking of AA women’s spirits. No matter who’s doing it. Even when it’s spoken by you. Even when such spirit-breaking was not your conscious, deliberate intention.
Whatever your inward intentions were with this post, I see it as part of the same widespread, abusive, break-BW’s-spirit campaign that so many AA males such as Neo (“all the good-looking kids are light-skined”), Yung Berg (“I don’t date dark butts”), and others are publicly engaged in.
It’s not “hatred” to reject the above type of behavior.
Furthermore, the sheer physical numbers do not support the idea that your characterization of BW is of any productive use. Even if AA women decided to agree with your characterization of them . . . even if they abased themselves and twisted themselves into pretzels trying to appease BM who feel as you do . . . there simply aren’t enough of y’all to go around to provide enough viable husbands for AA women.
The physical numbers aren’t there even before we screen out the AA men who are unfit and unable to be competent husbands and fathers (such as the violent convicts, the dope fiends, the gay men, the wife beaters, etc.).
And then we have to subtract the numbers of AA men who are unfit and unwilling to be competent husbands and fathers when it comes to BW and Black children—we have to subtract the large numbers of BM who idolize non-Black flesh, non-Black women, and so-called “biracial” children. You know, BM like Tiger Woods’ father who, IIRC, admitted in an interview that he wasn’t such an involved or great father to his previous set of all-Black children.
So, in light of the above situation regarding physical numbers, what is the benefit of AA women trying to contort themselves to appease the purported, CLAIMED criteria of AA men? [And I say "purported" and "claimed" because we see that so many BM DON'T hold non-Black women to these same criteria. These claimed criteria only really matter to many AA men when it comes to AA women.]
I submit to you that there is NO benefit to AA women trying to contort themselves to appease numerically non-existent BM.
NO, it’s long past time for AA women to follow AA men’s example and MOVE ON and do what works for them. And sidestep this toxic madness that is going on in the all-AA relationship market.
There are other men in the global village who appreciate AA women’s beauty, resilience, and high spirits just the way they are; and who WANT to be protectors and providers for individual AA women. All a woman needs is ONE husband. AA women who are SERIOUS about finding a husband to protect and provide for them and their future children need to expand their dating and marriage prospects to include these other men.
Wa Salaam.
Mr. Muhammed, “wifey” is a vernacular term used by young men nowadays to describe a woman they are dating, not necessarily married to. Right after college I worked as a GED teacher for pregnant and parenting teens in Springfield, Mass. Many girls would happily exclaim that some young man had referred to her as his “wifey” meaning special girl or girlfriend. When I asked if they were married they looked confused. Some of these girls even wore rings and wrote essays about how much they loved being a “wifey”. These relationships had no legal standing whatsoever. That’s how absurd it has become in some of these low-income and black/Hispanic neighborhoods. There are few to NO examples of reciprocal, healthy marriage relationships.
“I submit to you that there is NO benefit to AA women trying to contort themselves to appease numerically non-existent BM.” Copy, paste and forward! Thank you so much for stating that so clearly!
You are right, all it takes is ONE man to be compatible with. I am SO glad to be out of the late 20s dating pool because it is tough out there. It’s so important to develop yourself so that you are ready to live well and participate in a multicultural world. I am 27 and while I am far from wealthy, last year I bought a small condo and am working on paying off my car, and am working on my MA. I would be a fool to settle for a man who can’t bring what I bring to the table. My fiance is 30 and has an MA as well. While he doesn’t own his own place, he has an apt. and when we move in together he will be able to contribute at least half to all we do. I won’t lie, I dated a bunch of those “give a brotha a chance” types (and they DO come in all shades) but I knew (just as men do when they ‘date’ women they have no intention of getting serious with) that I would NEVER marry one of those guys. I couldn’t bring a guy with bad grammar, Timbs and a hoodie to my holiday party at work. That would make me look like an idiot. Your partner is a reflection of you, moreso for women, especially for professional women. Black women, KNOW your worth and what you bring to the table. Don’t settle for crumbs.
@Khadija, Sister Seeking, Hamza21 and ARM
Your posts are proofs against the very solutions that you expouse. “Our” major problem is that “We” don’t love “Ourselves” as a community nor do we establish “true friendships” ie real “brotherhood/sisterhood” and we past this on to our children.
An example being instead of building because of what we have, we tear down because of what we lack!
I believe in Black Love as our Prophet (saws) endorsed loving your people.
I’ve heard people teach their daughters (including my Ummi teaching my sister) “never depend on a black man to support you” that right there sows the seeds for distrust. There are many other phrases we can use to build our daughters self-esteem and teach them to be self-reliant. Let’s teach them to strive for themselves because its good to strive not because someone else won’t.
In 1995 I went to the Million Man March, afterwards I thought man we as a people are on our way. Even today I ask brothers what happened to all that “attonement talk” and honoring sisters?
Then in 2000 I got Donna Franklin’s book “whats love got to do with it” and I read it just about cover to cover in twice in one day. I encouraged brothers to read it, but of course “I don’t care what no kafir bint has to say” or to that effect was the response.
That book solidified in my mind that Islam was not only “a” way towards the healing of our people but “thee” way.
How so?
our problem is a cultural problem trying to conform to the norms of a society that is at odds with our reality is never going to bring about a solution.
basically what I’m reading is that both sides are saying the solution is for BM and BW to marry outside the race?! huh? that sounds like genecide to me!
no we need to have higher level of morality! premarital and extramarital sex is rampant in our community! this has to stop! Also, here it is 2009 and “negros” are still dominated by a “Eurocentric” standard of beauty yes this is still an issue that brothers “mostly” have not overcome
…
Abu Usamah al-Aswad,
There is no longer any “us.” Not in the sense that you’re using these terms of “we”, “us,” etc. If you are referring to my blog posts, when I say “we” and “us,” I’m referring to African-American women and children. Period. This is because AA men walked away from the rest of “us” (AA women and children) decades ago.
In the general context, AA men broke that connection, and departed from the category of “we” and “us” decades ago by their mass abandonment of BW and children.
In the Blackamerican Muslim context, AA Muslim men broke that connection, and departed from the category of “we” and “us” by their mass flights to Morocco to purchase Arabian wives. And this didn’t just start recently.
So, for you to advise AA women to try to cling to men who have ALREADY abandoned them, and to cling to men who have ALREADY voiced their disdain for AA women is NOT the answer for AA women. In fact, this type of bad advice is a scam. A scam designed to keep a surplus supply of single AA women available to be used, abused and then discarded as disposable by AA men.
Listening to this sort of false sloganeering from men (who gain an advantage by telling us these slogans) is a large part of AA women’s problems. Waiting around for numerically non-existent BM and/or BM who don’t want BW is the source of most BW’s problems in this area of life.
This type of “I believe in Black love” lecture to BW is a SCAM. Where was/is this so-called “Black love” lecture when BM chase and marry non-Black women? Is this “Black love” rhetoric only used when talking to BW?
It seems to me that many BM only start talking that “Black love” slogan/deception when BW start talking about following BM’s lead and example and doing what works for them.
Basically, many AA men want to keep AA women available as a surplus, “Booty Call” supply of desperate, single women. When AA women are happily married (including to non-AA men—who generally don’t engage in revolving-door-marriages), then they are not available to be exploited by other AA men. This is often the TRUE underlying purpose motivating that false, deceptive “Black love” sloganeering from BM—to keep AA women tricked, trapped, and available to be exploited.
Let me repeat: NO, it’s long past time for AA women to follow AA men’s example and MOVE ON and do what works for them. And sidestep this toxic madness that is going on in the all-AA relationship market.
There are other men in the global village who appreciate AA women’s beauty, resilience, and high spirits just the way they are; and who WANT to be protectors and providers for individual AA women. All a woman needs is ONE husband. AA women who are SERIOUS about finding a husband to protect and provide for them and their future children need to expand their dating and marriage prospects to include these other men.
Wa Salaam.
I think this is hyped up.
A lot of people have an investment in perpetuating stereotypes of black women as being unmarriageable–those who like the idea of professional black women, arguably the most capable black women, remaining unmarried and childless. It means that less capable black women are perpetuating the race. Those who would play into the stereotype, ie., who would buy it, are perpetuating it, whether knowingly or unknowingly. How many men of other groups label their women totally unfit? If anything, many men of other groups celebrate the achievements of women of their group as reflecting on the worthiness of their women. Black women instead have people both within the group and outside, perpetually maligning them, rather than think about several things–what factors either lead black women to be seen a certain way, whether from the outside or inside, and how the strengths they are maligned for can be celebrated within the group and thus result in them being seen as worthy.
Beyond that, as for seeing professional black women as being perpetually flawed, why no discussion also, of the lower marriage rates among blacks in general? Are large numbers of black men–what are the numbers, are there serious imbalances between the two groups?
All this focus on black women once again, presents a view that it sucks to be a black woman, giving all kinds of other groups–whites as well as black men, opportunities to sit back and laugh at the so-called “pitiful professional black women,” and thus the men get to snicker, “they are too uppity, etc., that is why we don’t want them”.
Khadaja,I agree with you the about black men marrying trailer trash.We see this pheomenon all the time.It sickening me to my stomach that we could by look pass our own for Thursday night trash.
Kwame,
You said, “Khadaja,I agree with you the about black men marrying trailer trash.We see this pheomenon all the time.It sickening me to my stomach that we could by look pass our own for Thursday night trash.”
I appreciate your disgust with this behavior, but they’re free to do what they want. And if trailer park residents are what they want, I say let them have what they want. I’m not trying to stop anybody else from having what their hearts truly desire.
My issue is that I want to see more AA women happily married to QUALITY husbands who are REAL protectors and providers for them and their children. Period. This includes protecting a woman’s dignity. I don’t care who it is that’s taking care of AA women and children; as long as they are being properly cared for. And if AA men are unwilling or unable to do that, it’s time to move on.
I also want to see AA women’s spirits lifted up and NOT crushed—which is the current standard operating procedure among AAs. NO OTHER race of women is subjected to the non-stop spirit-breaking campaign of verbal abuse that AA are women are being subjected to by AA men (“You’re ‘too’ Black, and ‘too’ dark and therefore ugly…Don’t nobody want you anyway,” etc., etc., etc.). It’s time for more AA women to reject that soul-destroying message of “Don’t nobody want you anyway”, whether it’s coming from a rapper, or music video, or anybody else.
And the first reason why AA women need to reject that “Don’t nobody want you anyway” message is the practical reason that it’s simply not true. Most AA women have had the experience of being respectfully approached by non-Black, non-AA men. The problem is that most AA women blow these men off because they’re holding out for “nuthin’ but a BM.” Well, this posture is a life-damaging mistake for AA women at this point in time. Our mothers’ generation could afford to have that posture, but we can’t nowadays. Not if we want to have legitimate and wholesome marriages and family life.
My bottom line is that I want to see more AA women and girls cherished and properly cared for in the context of happy, healthy, wholesome marriages. Period.
Wa Salaam.
[...] recently castigated (thank God not castrated) for trying to honestly examine the reasons why some successful [...]
As salaam alaikum,
This is a problem for black women on the whole, whether they are Muslim or not. Unfortunately because of our cultural baggage, assimilation on many levels to Western standards (which are totally contrary to those of people of color) and the economic infrastructure here in America, the need to not have a black man has long been encouraged.
The black man was already shown no respect by greater society, which made him much more likely and receptive to pursuing a non-black woman. When this was incorporated with Islam, it’s apparent why many black men were pursuing Moroccan women in the 80s. I don’t excuse this, I just understand why. Unfortunately, a disdain for black American women seemed to accompany this.
On the one hand, brothers were espousing all that the deen says about respect for women; on the other hand, they were silently becoming and growing more contemptuous of us. Combine this with the poisonous Dawahtu Salafiyyah that invaded our communities (which I believe was most attractive to black males because of their already vulnerable and precarious psychological state, especially since brothers were placed on an extremely high pedestal and the “Dawah” basically tells you as a woman — and especially a black woman — are worth nothing) and wow! it’s no wonder that the divorce rate is as high as it is.
The problem comes from the top also. I am so sick of fake a– students of knowledge and imams (who talk to women at all hours of the night and engage in emotional intimacy) who co-sign this Arab mentality, now superimposed on black American Muslims. Their (meaning Arabs’) ideology has been thrust front and center on us and it has created and wreaked more havoc than any other force I have witnessed on black American Muslims. I would venture to say that as slavery has had the first biggest single effect on black Americans, the Dawahtu Salafiyyah has had the greatest negative effect on black American Muslims in this country!
The inherent narcissism that many brothers — especially the Salafis — is carrying is so poisonous, I for one won’t even deal with them. I won’t even allow my children to marry those types. I myself, if/when I ever marry again, will probably seek other than African American. I’ve always considered myself receptive to other cultures (although I do love the black man), but it’s self destructive to enter into marriage with them.
How many sisters do I know with multiple kids with multiple fathers? It’s no wonder why those sisters (who are unmarried of course) are now raising boys who have no sense of what it means to be a man, much less a Muslim man and girls who have a hatred of self. Coming out of hijaab, running away from home, getting high and having sex as early as 13. La hawla wa la quwatta illa billah. But of course, if the message coming from the minbar is that you are nothing basically but a vessel of slavery for your husband (Arab ideology again superimposed upon us), what do you expect?
Eyes Wide Shut (No More)!
Islam has the best remedy for our ills however as I no longer parse passages from the Qur’an on blogs, if someone is so inclinded you can read the Noble Qur’an surah 28: 1-6,
Alexis De Tocqueville wrote -
“There exists, indeed, profound and natural antipathy between the institution of marriage and that of slavery. A man does not marry when he cannot exercise martial authority, when his children must be born his equal, irrevocably destined to the wretchedness of their father; when having no power over their fate, he can neither know the duties, privileges, the hopes, nor the cares which belong to the paternal relation. It is easy to perceive that every motive which incites the freedman to a lawful union is lost to the slave by the simple fact of his slavery”
Donna L. Franklin wrote – “…the relationships between African-American men and women are the result of a distinctive set of esperiences they have had in this country…If we want to understand the schism [between BM & BW],..we must go back to its origins in the formative experience of slavery and its immediate aftermath in the era of Reconstruction” else where she writes “slavery weakend the family unit, disrupting and redefining marriage and family roles. It also inflicted profound indignities on the slaves that compelled them to respond and cope in ways that would deeply influence their views of their roles as men and women long after emancipation”
One of the side effects of slavery is that Blackmen then and to a large extent today are still seeking true leadership in the sense of controling their own social destiny, and many of the same factors that produced for both BM & BW a reluctance to marriage during slavery STILL exists today though in a slightly different context.
BM still wanting to see some safeguards of his authority and dignity and BW still wanting to see some safeguards of her security and dignity.
We as Black people are still suffering and inflecting more pain on each other as a result, only extreme emotional trama could produce the illogical notion that somehow BW & BC constitute one group of people “US” and the BM another group “them” taken to its logical conclusion at what age does the male BC ceases being the counted as “US” and is labeled as “them”?
Point being WE Black people as a whole are in this together, and WE need solutions that address our individual emotional needs but also to HEAL US collectively.
I’m so sick and tired of BOTH Black men and women, who CLAIM they have found true happiness by marrying non-Blacks yet feel the perverted need to taredown the opposite sex in order to justify their happiness! huh? If you all are so happy why is there no joy in your conversations?
If you love your mail order bride from Morocco, alhamdulillah why the need to dig at BW? If you love the white guy you married from work, hukuna matata, why attack BM?
I agree with this article its so dead on…many women would dispute or at least attempt to justify whats being accused of them but its so true that many successful AA’s are arrogant my question is what if men judge women the way they are judge
Salaam alaikum,
I’m late to this conversation. But seriously AR, I’m disappointed. I’m really surprised to see this coming from you. I do think perhaps you need to do an assessment as to the type of women you are attracting in your social circle and perhaps are pursuing. I think your statement speaks more to that, than to the realities of Black women with post graduate degrees such as myself and those that I know.
I do think Abu Usamah and Sister Seeking need their own blogs, as evidenced by their comments which take a much more nuanced and thoughtful approach to these issues. I am not saying that we have to agree on everything, but broad sweeping generalizations and stereotypes are impossible to prove and disprove. Also, we need to recognize the weight of each word we say and how they can have a negative impact on individuals whether we intend to or not.
@ Margari Aziza
Sister what can I say, it is what it is. I have been speaking to many, many men about this issue and it is not merely, as you say, “the women I’m attracted to”. I’m naturally atttracted to educated women and that is what I desire, but in all too many cases – perhaps most cases – education is ruining our sister’s conceptions of womenhood. This is not merely the case in the Muslim community, but especially the case. Contrary to popular and wrong-headed notions shared by educated and accomplished Black women, degrees are not what men are necessarily looking for, nor do they give women the right to engage in power struggles with their husbands or potential husbands.
As you know quite well from reading this blog, I am, and have always been, in support of Black women enpowering themselves to the fullest extent of their abillity. I abhore abuse against women of any color and in any form. But I must speak the truth here, and say quite honestly, that far too many educated black women have bought into the worst ideas produced by the so-called feminist movement. They don’t want, nor even KNOW HOW, to cook for their man anymore, and are deeply offended at the very suggestion that they should. While they incessantly scream about their own rights in a relationship, they find every reason under the sun to deny the man his rights, especially the sexual one (“you’re not going to use my body up” is the common refrain). In addition to this, they are bossy, pushy, recalcitrant, selfish, materialistic, and distrustful.
Of course I am not suggesting here that all educated Black women act this way, but again, far, far too many do. They think that their education entitles them to talk to their man in ways that are often demeaning and disrespectful, perfectly calibrated to wound his sense of manhood (oh yeah that’s right, that’s just that stupid “male pride thing” the feminists keep berating).
Yes, I realize that you are an educated and I assume happily married woman, but that does not negate the truth of what I and thousands of other educated and successful Black men are experiencing. You are taking this way too personally. Our women can deny these sentiments all day and all night, but until they take a hard – and I mean very hard – look in the mirror, they are going to continue to come up short because brothers are totally fed up with their nonsense.
AR,
I really do think you are speaking to a bunch of disgruntled men, who want to blame the inability for both Black men and women to connect and respect each other in a relationship on education and so called feminist ideas. I would argue that emotional damage due to past relationships and family history in combination does more harm than picking up a bit of Audrey Lorde. The education factor can also be debunked because you will find similar complaints launched at ALL Black women, regardless of education level or field. They will just be coined in a more classist rhetoric.
Your broad sweeping critiques in many ways undermines your past efforts. It leads to something of a double talk. It eminds me a bit of what liberal white do when they so called champion Black causes on one hand and then hold some racist views. It really undermines your cause. The very tone that you have with its condescension and bitterness towards educated Black women really indicates that you don’t have our best interest at heart. Perhaps if you rethought your approach. I’ve given talks on womanhood in Islam and spirituality, written on the topic as well. I’m working with a number of educated and professional Black Muslim women to foster healthy notions of womanhood and spirituality in both our youth and adult women. But I don’t see how your tone would be a healthy inclusion. In reality, I would tell my young sisters to not read your statements because they would be hurtful to their self esteem. It is what it is bro. And the reality is that your at times mean hearted statements, and those of thousands like you, are part of the reason why Black women put up walls.
ARM:
I thought I’d add my two and half-cents. From a number of published reports–I am reading a book called Renegade, which is about President Obama–President Obama and First Lady Michelle Obama, despite all their degrees and professional accomplishments, had difficulties in their marraige and, in the end, they had to work at it.
Class, education, religion, family upbringing and other variables play a great deal in who we select as our “mates.”
Frankly, I do not expect a Black-American woman who is a professional to look for a mate among longshoremen; however, if that is what she decides to do, that’s fine. In the best of all possible worlds, we cannot conflate who we are professionally with who we are as human beings; but, social stratification does not work that way in most societies. As a matter of fact, we have far more choice in selecting a mate than most people in the world in the American context.
From my experience, there are far more sisters in college than brothers and certainly in graduate schools. Where are these women supposed to find mates from a comparable social background?
There are Black-American men, such as myself, who does not possess post-graduate academic degrees (which means I am not a lawyers. doctor, or trained academic) who can hold a conversation with a highlt educated sister. This is not the problem.
I think there is an age-old animus–a social and emotional Iron Curtain–that exists between black men and women, despite their social strata, that makes “black love” all but impossible in all too many cases, these days, and in fact, the basis for ongoing antagonism.
It is sad.
Love, true love, requires imagination–and a willingness to accept certain realities so that each person can foster and grow. But, what, alas, does that mean in a society where everything has to be quantified by the watch you wear, car you drive, the stock of your business card, and your address?
I remember going to B. Smith’s in New York in the 1980s. It was a place where professional blacks hung out. All these folks did was talk about their jobs and impress one another with their business cards. You could not have a real and meaningful conversation with a sister about the larger dynamics of life.
At the end of the day, most black folks that I know who work in the corporate world have to put up with quite a bit from white folks in order to make that money. At the end of the day, the last thing I want to do is come home and be in an antagonistic relationship with the woman I care about or love.
And there is this reality: black men AND black women have viable stories to tell about unrequited love and disappointment. And I do believe that black men need to speak up. It is not a onesided affair by any means. Black women do not have a monopoly on the “someone done did me wrong business.” There are a lot of very capable, well educated, and hardworking brothers who have been used and abused by black women as well.
Now. It is up to black folks to address the chasm that exists between black men and black women at all social strata. The aggravation and stress to have to be in a marraige (or relationship) with someone who does nothing but cause you pain and anguish is not healthy or necessary; but, what are the options?
Black men who are not on top of of their game–as fathers, husbands, or men–whether they wear Brioni suits and Edward Greene wingtips or jeans and Timberlands to work–cannot logically expect any self-respecting woman to put up with them and the same can be said for black women.
Finally, the situation that we find ourselves in, as a people, is daunting. Black family life is a mess.
Some helpful advice for BW:
There is no shortage of good black men. This stuff is a crock! This is a “packaging” issue. This is about the shortage of black males who are tall, dark, handsome, rich, athletic, over 6 foot with degrees. Why not consider a male who may not have a degree. We have been doing it for you all since this college thing started. Here is a novel way to increase the numbers of good black men (in your minds):
1) Why not consider a man who is significantly (3 or more inches) shorter than yourself? (Ohhh, a good “increase” can occur here folks)
2) Why not consider a man who may not have a college degree but has a stable job and a good head on his shoulders?
3) So what if he is not athletic, most of you are not and yet you want him to be.
4) So what if he is not making a whole lot of money, chances are you do not either, you are just lying about it in your dating profile. But, with incomes combined, maybe a dinner a mickey d’s will not be so expensive.
When you take into consideration the above advice along with other measures you can easily figure out yourselves, the “number” of good black men in your “pool” as time goes from present to infinity approaches the number of black women in the dating market (becomes nearly equal). I hope that this helped, do not let this shortage blaje blaje get you down, it is not true. And remember, this is just all in your heads!
Give some of those shorter educated BM (many of whom are above your level in terms of education and pay) a chance sisters!!
Brandon:
Your analysis (or commentary) is not undergirded by either sociological facts or just plain old gumshoe empiricism–which is to say: the situation (as it relates to black men and women and, thus, the black family is grave) so much so that the CBC (Congressional Black Congress) recently found it necessary to openly examine what is occuring in terms of the marriage rates as it relates to black men and women.
No matter how one cuts the cake–18/10 stainless steel or sterling silver knife–we are, as black folks, faced with an imperial dilemma–that is: the collapse (or near collapse) of black family life. And that means relations between black men and women are, to put it bluntly, in very bad shape.
I’m an educated black man–college educated and a professional. To each his own. However, I’m not looking for a sister who is not sophisticated or educated. And, as a man, I cannot expect a sister, in the same situation, to look for a brother who is a longshoreman. Education, class, money, and social standing are realities. This is
Now, I know a good number of professional women who have to “settle” for brothers who may not be in their league educationally or otherwise (and sometimes these situations work); but, alas, these kind of relationships, indeed marraiges, are the source of a great deal of tension ans stress.
It is clear that black men, as a whole, have to step their game up.
black men have plenty of game.
the women need to be more realistic.
Every successful black woman I have met thinks she is better then everyone. She tries to hide it but I see it. If they are successful they are to high and mighty to do anything less then what they are paid. I see it first hand at my work place.
No wonder most of them are single.
They have the biggest attitudes of any race WITHOUT being sucessful THEN they get a excellent job. THEN. . . .THEN they are impossible.
Can’t be impressed, everything turns them off, heartless even!
They all need to be brought back down to a level everyone else is at.
Happiness is hard to find, specially with your head in the clouds.
At Morehouse College, at this very hour, the administration finds itself in a position where they find it necesary to ask black male students not to wear pajamas and basic ghetto wear to class (including dresses, high-heel shoes, etc). This is happening at Morehouse aka THE HOUSE.
Black women and Black men have issues. Let’s not blame black women because they are educated and have high standards for themselves and their mates. Black men need to get on top of their game and the ones that ARE on top of their game, frankly, have every right to demand to be treated with respect. Tearing black women down is not going to solve our issues as a people. Trust me.
@ Think
Come on Think, who is trying to “tearing Black women down”?! I am not talking about women maintaining high standards, that is not even what this discussion is about.
Brother ARM:
Read the post prior to mine. And by all means: the current debacle between black men and women has everything to do with standards as fully functioning “human beings” capable of doing what we need to do as men and women in so-called post-racial America. As a people, we have been ignorning these issues year after year after year and know we have a full-blown crisis of epic proportions on our hands.
A good number of our women folk ARE talking about having standards for their mates. Some of these brothers posting here act as if this is a crime. It is not. And we, the sane, should be happy. Brothers–that is: black men–have to have standards as well.
Now, our folks have not fully dealt with the implications of the 16th century on our family life and relations towardfs one another–which is horrific–accept it, reject it, or leave it alone. The statistics (for the quantitative analysis folks) are glaring insofar as marriage rates and single parent homes are concerned vis-a-vis black folks.
Educated and professional black women, frankly, are at a loss in this regard because brothers are lagging behind. What are these sisters on their “alleged high horses” supposed to do? My argument? Black men have to step their game up. Period. And so do black women.
Right now, the president of Morehouse has to waste precious time explaining to black men that they should refrain from wearining pajamas, high heels, and dresses to class. Far too many of our young men are suffering from “infantaliism.” In other words, they are fethishizing being a baby forever.
The past 35 years has not helped either. Ghetto culture has now become high culture among the black middle-class and has profoundly impacted the way that we view ourselves as men and women, our commitment to our people, family, building community life, and raising our children.
One sister did, in fact, raise the issue of standards as it relates to the legitimate right of any sane, educated, and morally upright woman to chose and select a mate. Why do black men act as if this is heresy–that, in fact, men have the right to realize that you cannot make a hoe into housewife, but a woman does not have a right to reject a thug or some shiftless Negro that does not meet her standards?
A.S.A A.R.M and Brother Think we may not always see things eye to eye but Brother Think I like you old school values. You young brothers bring a smile to an old man face.
American children do not have happy homes. They are television and computer addicts thanks, primarily, to mothers. So sorry, but facts are facts. American children have so many video games, movies, and “equipment,” that we now have to have “media rooms” to contain the sheer numbers of purchases made to very purposefully ignore our children. Then add to the mix that American women can’t and don’t cook. They don’t know how, and furthermore, between jobs, beauty and “health” regimens, and chronic diets, today’s mothers feel like crap most of the time, which translates into anger in the home. Just ask dad.
As for so called men,God didn’t send girly-men to preach the gospel, build churches,Masjids and reform society back in the days of the true teachings of Jesus and Muhammad(Peace be on both of them) And He certainly won’t do that today either.
This is predicated on one strategy: if they reform and revive the church/mosque back to what Allah taught, we’ll see reformation and revival in society as well.
I think that as a part of a strategy to change society we need to stop emasculating maleness in men.When the Quran says men are the maintainers and protectors of women , It didn’t mean having babies and let the state feed and provide for them.
My sons who are grown men now knew I would kick their behinds for saggy pants ,vulgar language and disrespect for women.My grown children still address me as Sir and say yes and no Mam to their mom.
Now we can blame the feminist movement all we want. But it won’t change a thing because in the end, men have embraced their own feminization. Men have done this to themselves because they have become soft and lazy.
Men are far more interested in accommodating the women’s movement than in asserting their masculinity. And whether that’s because we want to be “popular with the girls,” because we are too insecure and unsure about leading or if it comes out of sheer exasperation – “You want to take over the leadership? Go ahead, I just don’t want to argue anymore” – we’ve conceded our role in family.
But let’s be clear about one thing; we had no right to abdicate that responsibility.
The solution is very simple: men need to be men again. They need to take up their responsibility the way Allah intended them to behave. And the Masjid and other religious institutions need to re-learn how to help them do that again.
a) Inter-Racial Marriages
b) Arranged Marriages
c) Foreign men
d) Leave the country
e) Stay-At-Home-Dads
f) Single Fathers
g) Older men
h) Go Bisexual
MARRY EARLIER (25-28)
Oh and finally…stop fucking the thugs. They dont want marriage. Nice guys do.
Ask a happily married black couple.